Pike-Kirk poll

[syredronning]

Instead of working, a story made me think about this question, so here, have a poll tonight. The first question is about your personal opinion; the second and third try to look from character perspective. I'm sure I missed a lot of possible answers, so comments welcome!

[Poll #1529188]

Comments

a few random comments ...

[ayalesca.livejournal.com]

I don't have enough info on Pike to know what he has done - and in AOS certain we have pretty much no idea.

Greatness does require circumstance, so who knows what Pike may or may not have done given the chance? AOS is written like crap anyway so I don't give its "plot" much weight (yeah, Pike really forgot what was in his own goddamn thesis ... uh huh).

Kirk has way too much ego to not think in those terms, imo.

Re: a few random comments ...

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

Heheh, true about Kirk's ego, though some bring up the good point that he might think of "doing it his way" which would mean bowing out of direct competition :)

I really only asked for the feel of people because I know that canon doesn't really help here :) Thanks for filling in and commenting!

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

I answered for my impression of the AOS characters, not TOS.

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

Thanks for telling me. I know that these mostly work for Reboot but I wanted to keep it open for interpretation :)

[theoreticalpixy.livejournal.com]

I said 'he doesn't think in those terms' for Kirk but I'm slightly torn on that.

I think there is a certain amount of trying to live up to Pike's example but I don't know if I quite believe he sees it as cut and dry as Pike being better or not, though I think he would be prone to that type of thought on the 'bad days'. I feel like he sees Pike as an example but that a lot of Kirk's drive is to be his own man and that means not holding himself to the same measuring stick as others. So even if he sees Pike as great (And I certainly think he does) he doesn't necessarily rank himself as better or worse in comparison.

More of an 'I'll do it my way' mentality I suppose is what I'm getting at.

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

Wonderful comment, thank you very much :) "I'll do it my way" makes perfect sense for Kirk.

[izzyfics.livejournal.com]

I based my answers on AOS too.

Also, I think stories change my opinion--sometimes my idea of a character's backstory comes from fic (like yours, for example...:)).

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

Thanks for clarification.

And thanks for saying that my backstory influences you, that's quite a compliment :))

[merisunshine36.livejournal.com]

For me, this response varies wildly based on whether or not we're talking about TOS or AOS, because the relationships are so different. In my survey answers, I conflated the two and so they are kind of muddled.

Regardless of series, I think that Pike was extremely self-assured...I don't think he'd ever catch himself saying Kirk was "better". His comrade and equal (after years of captaining)? Sure. But no more than that.

As for TOS Kirk, I also think he was possessed of that same self-assured cockiness, but (I am side-stepping into meta territory) I think that is because they were both intended to be the same kind of character...brash, chiseled, and all-American, fighting for justice in space. Shatnerian Kirk would never own up to someone being better or smarter than him--except, perhaps at the end of ST:VI. On the other hand, AOS Kirk appears a bit more alone, scarred, and laden with Daddy issues, so I can imagine him laying on a wee bit more hero worship.

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the detailed commend, I loved to read it.

I also see more hero worship for AOS Kirk as opposed to TOS Kirk, just from their personality differences, so we're in complete agreement here.

OTOH I think Pike, despite being self-assured, would judge himself against Kirk or vice versa on bad days (also because after the Narada and the loss of the Enterprise, I think his self-assurance has taken quite a blow).

[merisunshine36.livejournal.com]

You raise a good point about pre-Narada vs. post-Narada Pike--he obviously wouldn't be the same man and it's likely he'd beat himself up a little.

And that just gave me a desire to write about angry Pike who doesn't want to give up his ship, battlefield injuries be damned. :)

[ariadnechan.livejournal.com]

Kirk opinion depends of what universe it is

because Pike was nothing to him in Tos, they never met until the The Menagery
Pike was the rol parent captain model for Spock, so Spock think really high of him, but JIM if he feel something about Pike could be jealousy because Spock have him in such steam, that he take the enterprise and risk a death penalty to help him. so in here for Sock was a great captain, not for Jim.

And the situation is reversed in XI because in here Spock didn't know Pike too much, but Jim know him better and i think was a parent captain rol model, even if was brief time, had an important change and purpose to his life, so this jim will think Pike was a great Captain.

And i think both of them are great captains, they are really worried for their crew and his work as captain, and their responsibilities. Both use their intuition and have a very talented and logic anchor as a first officer
but they do thing in their own stile.
(and think both of them love their first officers)

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your detailed comment :)

I agree, I didn't distinguish between TOS and AOS in the question - I thought I'd keep it open because many seem to have a kind of composite Pike in their head :)

[severinne.livejournal.com]

I found this a bit tricky to answer (didn't stop me from trying, though!) because I think it's actually impossible to answer all accurately from within one fandom alone. TOS Pike and Kirk don't really have a sufficient relationship for those last two questions to have any weight (Kirk could respect Pike, sure, but what's he to Pike?) and I don't think AOS alone told us enough about Pike's accomplishments to say for sure who the better captain would be/could have been.

Thankfully, for the purposes of personal canon, I tend to smash TOS Pike's traits as a Captain from 'The Cage' into my conceptualization of him in AOS - not all specifics, just the type of Captain he is. Which still doesn't give a lot compared to Kirk, but I still decided that they are objectively equally great, at least insofar as they both demonstrate the same degree of personal concern for the welfare of their ships. In terms of strategy... meh, who knows. I still like to think they're on an equal footing though.

For some reason I don't doubt that Kirk (I'm now firmly in AOS land here, hehe) still sees Pike as the better captain, if only because I think he likes the idea of NOT being the best - without a superior example, he has nothing to strive for, and I think that desire to do better will be with him for a very long time. With Pike I was more conflicted, because while I think Pike acknowledges Kirk as a great captain, I still feel like he harbours this dark inkling that the kid has so much to learn, or something... I don't know how to describe it, just this hard bitter thing inside Pike that isn't quite ready to concede to Kirk just yet. So I went with "No, but he wishes Kirk will become the best over time." *shrug*

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

You're right the answer is tricky and not just TOS/AOS, that's why I kept it open. I really wanted to measure the feel people have for their relationship and the results are interesting.

I still like to think they're on an equal footing though.

Agreed - AFAIS Pike wouldn't be the captain of the flagship at his age if he wasn't damn good.

I don't know how to describe it, just this hard bitter thing inside Pike that isn't quite ready to concede to Kirk just yet.

Agreed again *G* (surprise, surprise). Thanks for your detailed comment, I loved to read it!

[cyranothe2nd.livejournal.com]

No Picard??? (kidding-no flames!)

[syredronning.livejournal.com]

*LOL*! :)

*points at icon*