Oh, damn you. I chose Frank=stepfather by pure instinct because that's how I've internalized the relationship but now the more I think of it, the more undecided I am. Doesn't it truly seem unlikely that a smart bit of hotness like Winona would marry this guy? But he also doesn't seem like any sort of relation, either (based on, like, one deleted scene on the DVD *facepalm*). But I suppose both are possible, so my amended answer would have to be more like the third option - so long as the writer sells it well, I'm pretty much willing to see any interpretation. *shrug*
I think the uncle comes from the novelization or maybe the original script because it's not referred to in the deleted scene OR in the movie. So, neither interpretation is official canon :P
However, in my brain he's the stepfather because he insists so much on getting rid of the Kirk name, somehow. He's got to suffer under the endless silent comparison with a dead ghost.
I've only really seen him portrayed as a stepfather in fanfic, probably because of the novelisation... but tbh I actually don't like the idea much, and I'm glad that they didn't include that on the film. If it works in a story, I'll read it, but for canon I'd prefer that Frank be a relative or neighbour or something. I find it hard to imagine Winona marrying him.
Thanks for your comment! I like to think he looked&behaved different before they married, and then got very frustrated about being left alone with her kids.
Am I right in thinking that the only scene we actually see him in in the movie is him yelling at Kirk stealing his car? I seem to recall not disliking him at all the first time I saw the movie; he just seemed to be acting like any adult would in that situation.
The novelisation clearly has him as a stepfather and IIRC somewhat emotionally abusive too. I haven't seen the deleted scene you mention in one of your comments, though.
It's on Bluray afair or in the internets and it has him yelling at Sam who leaves for good and snarling at Jim: "You're no one" and other things. Really rather abusive IMHO.
Honestly, I don't see how that guy could be related to either Winona or George (if going by appearence in deleted scene) but I honestly don't mind either. I've seen very attractive people marry those deemed far less so, for a variety of reasons. So as long as it works for the story, I don't care. :)
Thanks for your comment! He's firmly the stepfather in my brain, possibly because he insists so much on getting rid of the Kirk factor (that's what it feels like to me).
There ain't many people around who can write fatherly!Pike without developing it into Pike/Kirk :P Must be our naughty brains. And the damn hotness of these two.
I guess I'm just that special. XD (The look on Jim's face right at about that scene just makes me think "HONEST, DAD, I'm NOT LYING; this isn't like the time you had to drag me out of the Orion orgy~")
Alas, I am completely in the wrong headspace. :/ I've written about 500 words in the last WEEK. :( I'm trying, but it's not going to be done soon. Maybe my long vacation that's coming up will help stir the brain cells.
Good luck to you as well! May we find our inspiration soon. ^^;
The deleted scene (on DVD/BR) is called "Uncle Frank and the boys" or something similar. The character was named "Uncle Frank" in some materials (I have no idea which) because they didn't want to give away that George would die. Therefore he and Winona should have been married etc., but Frank IS meant to be married to Winona.
As it's not in the movie (or even said in a deleted scene (not counting the title, that was, as I said, meant as a misdeirection)) I can go with whatever the fic is selling me though.
If an author is including Sam in the fic and going for a Frank who is more out of his depth that actually abusive, an uncle might even be a good idea, as Sam has to have been staying somewhere while his parents were in space. There's of course lots of options.
I've only watched the scene once, so I didn't remember, so thanks for putting this right.
And yeah, the scene WAS deleted and they could also call a stepfather uncle, and so on, so it's all still up to the author.
With deleted scenes I pick and chose. I "like" the stronger suggestions of abuse, because it makes sense of some of Jim's actions. I don't like the "he's using Gaila" stuff (even though I can work around it if we're going with some kind of severe abuse mentality) so I ignore that. I think Jim confusing Gaila with another Orion girl is impossible (either he's nicer than that, or he's coming from a place where he's using her, but would still pay close attention, because he NEEDS to to protect himself (abuse mentality etc.)), he's not that dumb, so that's a definite IGNORE.
They might also have changed the sound editing/ lines if they'd decided to include the scene in the movie. (They changed Sam to Johnny after all.)
I don't actually remember who told me that "uncle" was only a misdirection, but I do think that I got the impression that it's true. (Also, did somebody say that it's stepdad in the novel? Because I seem to remember that?)
I honestly don't know about the novel, as I didn't read it. But I do agree on that dumb scene with the Orion gal "mixup." I watched it, thinking "Really now. He can be an ass, but he's not a MORON." Definitely happy they took that out.
Picking and choosing these sorts of things is what fanficcing/fandom is often about, anyhoo. Makes it interesting. ;)
Ah thanks for that background info regarding the uncle Frank smokescreen.
I can go with every interpretation too if sold well, but in my head, he's the abusive stepfather (he's probably under quite some pressure himself but his statements in the deleted scene are rather heavy IMHO).
I'm firmly on the abusive stepfather side by now too. (I like the idea perhaps a little too much...)
The only exception in my head is the one (totally neglected) pet universe I came up with when I first heard the "Uncle" thing and before I knew that it was a misdirection. That was a universe where Frank was Winona's (probably younger) brother. She'd been abused (by her father probably, sexually) growing up but thought that Frank hadn't been, because he was a boy. She could deal with raising a family only because George was there to show er how. Then he dies and she doesn't trust herself and gives the boys to Frank (she still thinks he's ok, but he was in fact sexually abused too) who then abuses the boys like he had been abused. Then Winona finds out and shit happens.
So, ehm, tl;dr, but mostly I'm on the stepfather side. That idea is also pretty much all over in fandom and had already been very widespread when there was a little confusion about the uncle-thing. I also think many people who wouldn't have read the novel listened to the audiobook because Zach read it and so people know it says stepfather there.
I've never actually written, well pretty much anything really. All my pet universes exist in my head. The primary ones usually get so epic that I'm too intimidated to even try writing it and then I also always remember the one or two embarassing pieces I tried to pen way back when... (... I first entered fandom at 16).
I might try to write something as part of a resolution to change my life around a bit, but then I might never get around to it.
All ideas I post in a comment are always up for grabs though if anybody feels inspired.
(Also I just found some early hidden easter chocolate eggs, so I'm good on that front for now ;))
I think he's credited as "Stepfather" in the movie credits? And my immediate impression, whilst watching, was cohabiting-BF/stepfather; (I didn't assume Frank and Winona were married, but did pick up that they were in a co-residing relationship when Winona was on-planet) but I could go for uncle if someone wanted to try that. (Haven't actually seen it, but I could deal with it if I did!)
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(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-05 08:15 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 03:22 pm (UTC)However, in my brain he's the stepfather because he insists so much on getting rid of the Kirk name, somehow. He's got to suffer under the endless silent comparison with a dead ghost.
Thanks for your comment!
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 12:25 am (UTC)I've only really seen him portrayed as a stepfather in fanfic, probably because of the novelisation... but tbh I actually don't like the idea much, and I'm glad that they didn't include that on the film. If it works in a story, I'll read it, but for canon I'd prefer that Frank be a relative or neighbour or something. I find it hard to imagine Winona marrying him.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 03:23 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 03:30 pm (UTC)Am I right in thinking that the only scene we actually see him in in the movie is him yelling at Kirk stealing his car? I seem to recall not disliking him at all the first time I saw the movie; he just seemed to be acting like any adult would in that situation.
The novelisation clearly has him as a stepfather and IIRC somewhat emotionally abusive too. I haven't seen the deleted scene you mention in one of your comments, though.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 03:32 pm (UTC)or in the internetsand it has him yelling at Sam who leaves for good and snarling at Jim: "You're no one" and other things. Really rather abusive IMHO.(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 03:42 pm (UTC)Ah okay: I vaguely recall something like that being in the book. I'm glad they cut it though, I prefer the way it is in the finished movie.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 12:37 am (UTC)...and Frank is a were-goat. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 03:25 pm (UTC)Hehe, were-goat. Nice ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 03:33 pm (UTC)There ain't many people around who can write fatherly!Pike without developing it into Pike/Kirk :P Must be our naughty brains.
And the damn hotness of these two.(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 12:30 am (UTC)^_~
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 02:52 pm (UTC)Ah, I need more of your series. How's your writing progress going? (Hopefully better than mine...)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 11:02 pm (UTC)Alas, I am completely in the wrong headspace. :/ I've written about 500 words in the last WEEK. :( I'm trying, but it's not going to be done soon. Maybe my long vacation that's coming up will help stir the brain cells.
Good luck to you as well! May we find our inspiration soon. ^^;
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 11:04 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-06 11:17 pm (UTC)The character was named "Uncle Frank" in some materials (I have no idea which) because they didn't want to give away that George would die. Therefore he and Winona should have been married etc., but Frank IS meant to be married to Winona.
As it's not in the movie (or even said in a deleted scene (not counting the title, that was, as I said, meant as a misdeirection)) I can go with whatever the fic is selling me though.
If an author is including Sam in the fic and going for a Frank who is more out of his depth that actually abusive, an uncle might even be a good idea, as Sam has to have been staying somewhere while his parents were in space.
There's of course lots of options.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 12:40 am (UTC)Deleted Scene, right about 0:42-
Sam: "I can't take Uncle Frank anymore. Mom has no idea what he's like when she's not around..."
Which in no way negates your point (especially because it was deleted,) just thought I'd point it out. ^_~
I agree with your "go with whatever the fic is selling me" as well. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 01:09 am (UTC)And yeah, the scene WAS deleted and they could also call a stepfather uncle, and so on, so it's all still up to the author.
With deleted scenes I pick and chose. I "like" the stronger suggestions of abuse, because it makes sense of some of Jim's actions. I don't like the "he's using Gaila" stuff (even though I can work around it if we're going with some kind of severe abuse mentality) so I ignore that. I think Jim confusing Gaila with another Orion girl is impossible (either he's nicer than that, or he's coming from a place where he's using her, but would still pay close attention, because he NEEDS to to protect himself (abuse mentality etc.)), he's not that dumb, so that's a definite IGNORE.
They might also have changed the sound editing/ lines if they'd decided to include the scene in the movie. (They changed Sam to Johnny after all.)
I don't actually remember who told me that "uncle" was only a misdirection, but I do think that I got the impression that it's true. (Also, did somebody say that it's stepdad in the novel? Because I seem to remember that?)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 01:40 am (UTC)Picking and choosing these sorts of things is what fanficcing/fandom is often about, anyhoo. Makes it interesting. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 02:51 pm (UTC)I have the novel around *goes and checks* - there, it's definitely stepfather.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 02:46 pm (UTC)I can go with every interpretation too if sold well, but in my head, he's the abusive stepfather (he's probably under quite some pressure himself but his statements in the deleted scene are rather heavy IMHO).
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 07:44 pm (UTC)The only exception in my head is the one (totally neglected) pet universe I came up with when I first heard the "Uncle" thing and before I knew that it was a misdirection. That was a universe where Frank was Winona's (probably younger) brother. She'd been abused (by her father probably, sexually) growing up but thought that Frank hadn't been, because he was a boy.
She could deal with raising a family only because George was there to show er how. Then he dies and she doesn't trust herself and gives the boys to Frank (she still thinks he's ok, but he was in fact sexually abused too) who then abuses the boys like he had been abused. Then Winona finds out and shit happens.
So, ehm, tl;dr, but mostly I'm on the stepfather side. That idea is also pretty much all over in fandom and had already been very widespread when there was a little confusion about the uncle-thing. I also think many people who wouldn't have read the novel listened to the audiobook because Zach read it and so people know it says stepfather there.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 07:50 pm (UTC)I like your pet universe idea because it would make a lot of sense! Ever wrote anything for it? Can I send you chocolate as motivation? :)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-07 08:59 pm (UTC)I might try to write something as part of a resolution to change my life around a bit, but then I might never get around to it.
All ideas I post in a comment are always up for grabs though if anybody feels inspired.
(Also I just found some early hidden easter chocolate eggs, so I'm good on that front for now ;))
(no subject)
Date: 2010-09-04 06:20 am (UTC)